[Once again, this is an AI transcription, edited for clarity, of our June 22 2024 service “sermon” discussion. There will likely be errors I did not catch.]
JOHN VALADE
All right. So does anybody here have the original King James Version?
Speaker 1
Nope, I have the New King James.
JOHN VALADE
That would work as well. But I think mine’s the New International Version, so anybody who has the KJV or NKJV one, please read Revelation 13 and verse 10.
JOHN VALADE
“He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity. He that kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here’s the patience and the face of the saints.”
JOHN VALADE
Okay, so, so what impression do you get? Who who goes into captivity?
Speaker 1
Certainly about the saints.
JOHN VALADE
So you’re either reading a different version to come to that conclusion, or you’re also reading the context to that conclusion, which is good. According to the King James, though, it’s the people who lead into captivity that go into captivity. In other words, it’s the captors’ captivity.
Speaker 1
If you cause oppression, you will be oppressed.
JOHN VALADE
That’s right. And according to the King James, if you kill by the sword, you’re going to be killed by the sword.
Speaker 1
It’s a long winded way of saying, by the measure you judge others, you will be judged right?
JOHN VALADE
So that’s, that’s what you get from the King James Version. I suspect the New King James Version gives us the same thing from just verse 10.
Speaker 1
There is a reference in my Bible to Isaiah 33:1, it says “plunder,” Woe to you who plunder, though you have not been plundered; And you who deal treacherously, though they have not dealt treacherously with you! When you cease plundering, You will be plundered; When you make an end of dealing treacherously, They will deal treacherously with you.
JOHN VALADE
Okay, so that enunciates the same principle of retribution that the King James version seems to be saying in Revelation 13. So Isaiah 33 one, and then also Jeremiah 15, two. So let’s go to Jeremiah 15. That section actually starts in verse one.
JOHN VALADE
“Then the Lord said to me, even if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me, my heart would not go out to his people.” Ouch. Send them away from my presence, let them go. So God is ordering that they be sent from his presence.
Speaker 1
Even though somebody endorses you, I will not Yeah.
JOHN VALADE
“And if they ask you, where shall we go? Tell them, this is what the Lord says. Those destined for death to death, those for the sword to the sword, those for starvation to starvation, those for captivity, to captivity.”
It’s not quite the same as what at least the King James and the New King James read in Revelation 13. Other translations actually look at it differently.
So in Jeremiah 15, something different is going on, and it is that the people of Israel are rejecting God, or the people of Judah, I should say, are rejecting God. Israel is already well into captivity, and God is saying, now it’s your turn. I’m sending you away from me. You’re going away from my land. You are going away from me. So where are they going to go? They’re going to be sent to Babylon.
Speaker 1
Oh, the land is my [God’s] land.
JOHN VALADE
Eventually, God is going to say. “the whole world is mine. I’m sending you away.” It’s already taken this whole time, just to clarify one verse of the Bible,
Speaker 1
The other context is those that are persecuted.
JOHN VALADE
Bingo, yeah, so let’s go let’s go to Revelation 13. And this time, instead of just reading verse 10, we’re going to start in verse one. And I love how the NIV puts this In In the next verse, the second word of this, “the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.” What is it in other versions? “I stood on the shore…” I think it’s great. Why would there be such differences?
JOHN VALADE
“The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. So there’s a little marginal reference some manuscripts add, “and I” so it depends on what manuscripts they were. And part of the problem is, of course, that you’re copying a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, and it looks like they’re the oldest, most reliable manuscripts we had, John or the dragon standing on the shore.
Speaker 3
So who is the person who saw the beast?
Speaker 1
John writing this, right?
JOHN VALADE
This is John writing this. He’s the one that’s standing on the shore. So I’ve read enough commentaries to know that there’s a lot of discussion between whether it’s John or the dragon that’s standing on the shore. That probably tells us something.
Speaker 2
What’s going on here is that it’s actually a vision.
JOHN VALADE
Well, it’s a vision, but what’s happening grammatically is that there’s a pronoun being used here, and they’re not sure if the pronoun refers to that dragon or John standing on the shore, they may well both be standing on the shore. So the last person referred to is the dragon in verse 17 of the previous chapter. And so that’s why it figures the it’s that dragon standing on the shore, or it could be John, because he’s describing the scene. “And I saw the beast coming out of the sea.”
JOHN VALADE
The dragon’s on the shore, but the beast is coming out of the water.
Speaker 4
You mean the Devil is there in 17, it’s the dragon that was wroth with the woman, right? Yeah. And in eight, in 13, verse one is talking about the beast and yeah, to be the dragon that’s seeing the beast come up out of the sea. But then, as you read down through there, it doesn’t make sense. Yeah, that’s the case, because it’s John describing what’s happening
JOHN VALADE
Yeah, John is the one seeing the beast come out of the water. Anyway, so I don’t think that changes the message of the passage.
Speaker 1
Okay, so we beat that to a fine powder.
JOHN VALADE
So, so the beast that’s coming out of the sea,. At least we know that beast is coming out of the sea, no matter who’s on the shore watching.
JOHN VALADE
“It had 10 horns and seven heads with 10 crowns on its horns and he had a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but it had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. [So basically, a combination of all of the beasts of Daniel.] The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. And I saw one of its heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed”…
JOHN VALADE
It wouldn’t surprise me if the fatal wound is the fall of the Roman Empire, of the Western Roman Empire, which is about to be revived.
Speaker 1
I think it was of three groups that invaded, and after that, the Holy Roman Empire came along, and then they revived it the presence and communion of the Catholic Church.Speaker 1
Okay, so what? The deadly wound had been healed. “The whole world was filled with awe and followed the beast.”People worship the dragon because he had given authority to the beast. And they also worshiped the beast and asked who’s like the beast, who can wage war against it?”
JOHN VALADE
So whatever this beast is, it’s a militarily mighty power, or at least perceived as a militarily powerful entity. Of course, it makes me nervous that the French and the Germans are talking about conscription now. They are also talking about putting their economies on a war footing, because they’re so afraid of the Russians. Alright. Verse five:
JOHN VALADE
“The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for 42 months.”
JOHN VALADE
It’s interesting that 42 months is three and a half years,. According to Daniel, the Messiah is cut off in the midst of a week. And if you’re talking a year for a day, you’re talking three and a half years after that for the remains three and a half days of that week, which, if you’re going year-wise is 42 months.
JOHN VALADE
“It opened its mouth to blaspheme God and to slander His name and His dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. [So this is the context of the death and captivity!] And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.”
JOHN VALADE
Now it’s likely talking about the peoples of what was the Roman Empire, rather than the whole planet Earth, because the world here is a word that can also just mean all the inhabitants of the land, rather than all the inhabitants of the earth, as in “planet.”
Speaker 1
Yeah, the word works that way in Greek and in Hebrew. The words for Earth and land are basically the same. It just means the land like we say “country,” but it also is the same word for “countryside.”
JOHN VALADE
God save our land, or God keep our land, right.
JOHN VALADE
“So all the inhabitants of the land or the world, will worship the beast, all whose names have not been written in the book of life of the lamb from the creation of the world. Whoever has ears, let them hear. If anyone [and this is the NIV version] is to go into captivity, into captivity, they will go if anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword, they will be killed.”
JOHN VALADE
See how different this is from how the King James translates it. In this case, it’s almost a predestination thing. So whoever God has decreed is going to go into captivity, will go to captivity, and whoever God is ordering to be killed will be killed.
JOHN VALADE
“This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.”
JOHN VALADE
So why might you need endurance? You might need endurance if you’re in captivity, right? Why might you need faithfulness? Because you might be killed.
Speaker 1
Plus this organization has a blasphemous name, meaning he’s claiming to be God, and the true servants of God have to be eliminated And people will think that if you don’t believe in the miracles that they’re doing, you’re wrong, even though the mount of olives is still there.
JOHN VALADE
So I’ve actually looked into the Greek, and it is possible to read it both ways, but unlikely that the people who are killing will be killed by the sword, and unlikely that people who are leading into captivity are going to be led into captivity. So It’s not a retribution thing, and where might there be other evidence of what’s going to happen during that time? To kind of make that more clear, we might go back to Jeremiah, but chapter 43 this time.
JOHN VALADE
Jeremiah, 43. So now Jeremiah and Baruch and the remnant of the people that the king of Babylon had left in the land have now exited to Egypt. Okay, so this is the last of the people of Judah who decided, since somebody killed the governor, “We gotta get out of here, because Babylon is going to be really, really ticked off at us.” And so in verse seven, they enter Egypt in disobedience to the Lord, and went as far as Taphanes. So Jeremiah has been taken against his will by the new governor, and the people have moved into Egypt thinking that the Egyptians will protect them. But in Taphanes, the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, “While the Jews are watching take some large stones and bury them in clay in the brick pavement at the entrance to Pharaoh’s palace in Taphanes.”
JOHN VALADE
Where are those stones being buried? They’re being buried in front of Pharaoh’s palace, alright? So it was the seat of government in Egypt at that time. In verse 10:
JOHN VALADE
“Then say to them, This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says, ‘I will send for my servant, Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, and I will set his throne over these stones I have buried here. He will spread his royal canopy above them. He will come back. He will come and attack Egypt, bringing death to those destined for death and captivity to those destined for captivity and the sword to those destined for the sword. ” Any of this look familiar?
Speaker 1
In other words, just because you run away, it doesn’t mean you’re going to escape.
JOHN VALADE
Yeah, the arm of the Lord is long. Then you sit right in the temple of the garden of Egypt, etc, etc.
Speaker 1
So I know who you are, and I know whether you’ll flee, whether you stay, whether you fight or or quit and fall on your own sword.
JOHN VALADE
Yeah. So you know that in all of these Marvel movies, that villain always says to you, “No matter where you go, there’s no place you can hide from me.” Well, God is making that abundantly clear, but note that he determines, in this case, that some will be killed, some will be captured, some will be slaves, and it’s his own people, right? These are his own people, and he’s determined, because they disobeyed his orders in this particular case, he’s going to make them pay the price.
Speaker 1
In a sense, it’s sort of multi generational, because Nebuchadnezzar did it, and then the Medes and the Persians had Egypt, and then Alexander the Great had one of his generals take over Egypt. Speaker 1
And then Julius Caesar, right? Well, Mark Anthony takes Egypt, but Julius takes it from him. Okay, so here we have an example where it actually means that God has determined it.
Speaker 1
Maybe in the future, somebody will be told to dig up these stones and bring them back to his throne.
JOHN VALADE
Okay, I had already read Jeremiah 15 talking about how even if Moses and Samuel were standing before him, he would not still turn his face away from that people and then, you know, those destined for death, sword and slaver. So this, this seems to be a running gag throughout Jeremiah. I mean a running theme throughout Jeremiah.
Speaker 1
And a few others besides Jeremiah.
JOHN VALADE
Okay, so let’s go to Daniel chapter 11. And we’ll start in verse 31 unfortunately, it’s hard to know exactly where to start here, because it’s just a big story with things that happen at different times in history. Verse 31:
JOHN VALADE
“His armed forces rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation with flattery. He will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God, will firmly resist him. Those who are wise will instruct many though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them.”
JOHN VALADE
“Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time. “The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard of things against the God of gods. He’’ll be successful until the time of wrath is completed. What has been determined must take place.”
JOHN VALADE
So this gives us a an idea of when at least that happens. Right? This is definitely an End Times prophecy. “He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women…”
JOHN VALADE
So many people think that that means Jesus. Others probably think that that means some sort of, some sort of sex god, I guess.
JOHN VALADE
“…nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above all.
JOHN VALADE
So whoever this guy is has an ego the size of the solar system, thinking of himself as God, exalting himself above all gods, I kind of get the impression that he must be somebody possessed by the devil or something.
JOHN VALADE
“Instead of them [these gods], he will honor a God of fortresses. A god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold, with precious stones and costly gifts.”
JOHN VALADE
That almost sounds like his God is the military industrial complex.
JOHN VALADE
“He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people, and will distribute the land at a price.”
JOHN VALADE
So this is feudalism all over again.
JOHN VALADE
“At the time of the end, the king of the south will engage him in battle, and the King of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. He will also invade the beautiful land.”
JOHN VALADE
What’s the beautiful land? Israel.
JOHN VALADE
“Many countries will fall, but even Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. So where Edom Moab and Ammon are is now called Jordan.
Speaker 5
It makes sense, even if attacking Israel, to try to avoid attacking the surrounding nations east and north of Israel. This would cause problems with most of the Muslim world.
JOHN VALADE
“Egypt will not escape. You will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches in Egypt.”
JOHN VALADE
Those poor Egyptians get hammered on every time, along with the Libyans in submission. So that means pretty much all of Northern Africa. Remember that the Mediterranean was once considered a “Roman Lake.” If Europe re-Romanizes, it would be logical to attempt to control the entire Mediterranean. Even Mussolini attempted to do so, with German help.
JOHN VALADE
“But reports from the east and north will alarm him and he will set out at a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. He will pitch his royal tents between the sea and the beautiful holy mountain.”
JOHN VALADE
How many beautiful holy mountains are there in Scripture? Yeah, Mount Zion, of course.
JOHN VALADE
“Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.”
JOHN VALADE
So pitching his tents kind of gives you the idea of establishing a headquarters. It links it together with the destruction of the people, and particularly in this case, of the Jewish people who were there, but also the Christians.Does that make sense at all? He’s making his headquarters right there in Jerusalem, to be clear, and is going to be killing many and taking many into captivity and among them, both Christians and Jews.
Now, why? Why might the Jews be in that condition at that time of the end? So think about that for a moment. We have the situation being set up Israel right now, in Gaza that is going to provoke a whole bunch of nations to come against Israel, Right? And what does God think of Israel’s actions, now?
Speaker 1
There are certain prophecies that says it will become pasture land, but those seems to indicate God’s going to do that. Yeah, and not somebody whose name means gift from God.
JOHN VALADE
So, Israel is in possession of what used to be the Land of Israel, the nation of Israel. Now the Israeli people think God promises they’re going to have it now. Jerusalem was going to exist according to prophecy. But does God promise that they get their land now, or do they get their land once Messiah returns?
Speaker 1
When the Messiah returns, right? But certain things have to happen in order for certain other things to happen. At least some of your people had to show up, because you can’t fight the army if there’s no reason for anybody to hate these people.
JOHN VALADE
Exactly. So they’re in that land. So the Gentiles are in charge, and what they’re doing in that land is actually the opposite of what Jesus told the people they should be doing, right? What are they supposed to be doing with the people who were not of their identity? Are they supposed to be making war, or are they supposed to be trying to live at peace with their with the oppressing Gentiles?
Speaker 1
They were originally told to go in to take over the land from Canaanites. But definitely the people of Gaza are from Egypt, according to the scripture, and they’re not the Philistine people. They are tied to the Mizraim, as opposed to Canaan. But Joshua, he was still they were told to take over the land, but they failed to obey the covenant. And then, after they went into captivity, they were told to live their lives peacefully in the land where they were taken, exactly. That’s Jeremiah 29 right. But He also promised that if they obey God and the Gentile rulers, he would bring them back. So you could argue this a little bit both ways, because for many years, they’ve tried to live at peace with those amongst them, and they tried at West Bank, as they call it, and the Gaza Strip where they try, relatively, to get along and just make it work.
In the other part of that’s not controlled by the Palestinians, Arabs, actually fight for Israel. Other people that you know, they understand the big framework. .you can’t preach from your book and say that God determines the nation, group of people that has the nation.
Speaker 1
Yeah, it’s contradictory. Yet you have people in Gaza that the world gave aid to, and their solution was to dig a bunch of tunnels and buy a bunch of military equipment, because they somehow think they can fight and get rid of Israel.
Speaker 1
So you’re in this context, and what do you do as the country of Israel, right? When you come up against something like that, I don’t know what they’re doing is right, but, even if they didn’t retaliate to the attack or react to it, it would just give them a permission to kill more people. Yeah, yeah. Basically, as they say, damned if you do or damned if you don’t.
Speaker 1
This is wrong, and then they sort of juggle their own fake morality. It’s wrong for Israel to do it to us, but it’s okay for us to do it to you. So they had to have a certain number of Israelites in that area. So somehow that had to transpire. Now, I don’t know how many Jews were there before 1948 but there was some there. Speaker 1
The difference is that they’ve determined that they have to form their own nation. And remember when they formed their nation, was a nation under God?
Speaker 1
The League of Nations determined that Jerusalem was the capital, and then they all got upset with Israel and now are opposed.
JOHN VALADE
Okay, just as a reminder, when the covenant curses comes upon them in Deuteronomy, 28, starting in verse 63. There’s a lot of curse here. SoI’m just hitting the highlights or low lights, as it were. Verse 63:
JOHN VALADE
“Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You’ll be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess. The Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your ancestors have known. Among those nations, you will find no repose, no rest, no resting place for the soul of your foot there the Lord will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and as a despairing heart, you’ll be filled with night and day, never sure of your life. In the morning, you will say, if only we’re evening and in the evening, if only ever morning. Because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see, the Lord will send you back in ships to Egypt on a journey I said you should never make again. There you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but none will buy you.”
JOHN VALADE
So what is the condition that God promises?
Speaker 1
I’m looking for a job.
Speaker 4
No, this is, this is becoming the context of life of Jews in trial.
Speaker 6
No matter where they go. And what was the justification for Israel. Again, right?Speaker 7
I am so sick of that phrase, because it’s so untrue, no matter how hard people seem to think they’re trying to make it true, but it’s not. Has it been ever since it first was invented? Never again. Yeah. Even happening,
Speaker 1
So the whole justification for setting up that nation was so that they would have a place be free from the fear of slavery, fear of death, and what’s going on now. They’re not. Every day some rocket might come over their border.
JOHN VALADE
And the thing that kind of clued me into that is Right here in Daniel chapter two.Speaker 1
Daniel is interpreting. First, he has to tell him what the dream is. Verse 36:
JOHN VALADE
“This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the King. Your Majesty. You are king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory. [By the way, He means that Nebuchadnezzar is His servant.] In your hands He has placed all mankind and the beast of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, He has made you ruler over them all. , You are that head of gold. After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, the third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole world. [And again, the whole land, right? Because obviously they’re not ruling China.] Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron.”
JOHN VALADE
Verse 40 “Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, for iron, breaks and smashes everything, and as iron brings things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others.”
JOHN VALADE
It gives you an impression that wherever they go will be death and destruction and not much building.
JOHN VALADE
“Just as you saw the feet andtoes were partly iron and partly clay, so this will be a divided kingdom. Yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it. Even as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, as the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. Just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united anymore than iron mixes with clay.”
JOHN VALADE
“In the time of these kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to other people. He will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end. But it will itself endure forever. This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of the mountain, but not made by human hands, the rock, the broke, the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.
Speaker 1
The description matches Europe after the fall of the original Roman empire dating all the way to our time, including NATO. That’s partly strong and partly weak.
JOHN VALADE
So where’s Israel in this. Israel doesn’t even count in all of this.When you when you see and actually understand the nation that calls itself Israel. That’s not their time. This is not their time. It’s the time of the Gentiles.
Speaker 1
Plus their arrogance becuase the term Israel, means one who prevailed with God. They’re Jews, but they forget about all the other tribes. So they take a name that typically they didn’t earn the right to. They were the kingdom of Judah, not Israel as such.
JOHN VALADE
So Gabriel comes to Daniel as he’s praying. He’s come to give insight and understanding in verse 43:
JOHN VALADE
“As soon as you began to pray, a word went out which I have come out for you are highly esteemed. Therefore consider this word and understand the vision. 70 sevens are decreed for your people and for your and your holy city to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place, [or most holy one, depending on how translators view that]. Know and understand this.”
JOHN VALADE
“From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there’ll be seven sevens and 62 sevens. They’ll be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.”
JOHN VALADE
So here’s how we know that Jerusalem has to be there, but the nation called Israel doesn’t. Does that make sense at all? So Jerusalem is going to be there, but it’s always going to be in trouble. There’ll always be troubles.
JOHN VALADE
“After the 62 sevens, the Anointed One will be put to death “and have nothing,” [although “not for himself,” is actually a better translation]. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.”
JOHN VALADE
So this is actually predicting that the Roman Empire will destroy Jerusalem, and that out of that empire will come that king who thinks he is a god. Of course this was not exactly unheard of among Roman emperors.
JOHN VALADE
“The end will come like a flood. War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.”
JOHN VALADE
Notice that war continues until the end. What is the nation of Israel doing now in Gaza right now? Waging war.So when the empire restarts, you know, reboots, and decides it’s time to take over that area, there’ll be a lot of killing and a lot of captivity, and it will be both church and Jews.
So here’s the patience of the saints, and the endurance of the saints comes from, as one pointed out, endurance of individuals staying with God, or faith in the face of death. Okay, so any other thoughts or ideas?
JOHN VALADE
All of that was just to clarify Revelation 13, verse 10, that those going into captivity are saints, and some of the Jewish people in Jerusalem and surrounding areas, and those killed will be saints, and Jewish people in that region,
Speaker 1
They’re going to be a group that adds laws upon laws where anything that would have been fair and just must be thrown out. For instance, Nebuchadnezzar did a law, and then he had to basically, literally try to kill somebody, because they disobeyed. Then, when they didn’t die at all, we’ll decree that this God of Israel must be respected. Why couldn’t you just do that in the first place?
JOHN VALADE
That’s what happens when a leader starts thinking that he or she is a god.
✸
John Valade 
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